The second episode of Season III of “Budget Talks” focuses on education, funding, and competition for students.
How much does quality education cost, and who should pay for it? Why are private universities more efficient than public ones? How can Ukraine retain its youth?
In the new episode of the podcast “Budget Talks,” we address these and other pressing questions. Viktor Maziarchuk, Head of the Fiscal Policy Research Center, and Tymofii Brik, Rector of the Kyiv School of Economics, discuss the challenges facing universities and the changes that are needed.
VIKTOR
Hello! This is the “Budget Talks” podcast. Today, we will be talking about education – not finance. But trust me, Tymofii, we will talk about finance as well. We will discuss society, the future, and sociology, since our guest today is Tymofii Brik, Rector of the Kyiv School of Economics.
Welcome, and thank you for joining us.
TYMOFII
Thank you for the invitation. Although I lead a university called the Kyiv School of Economics, I am not an economist. I know little about finance, but I will try to be as helpful as possible.
VIKTOR
Let’s put it this way: maybe you don’t know much about finance, but you are one of the best sociologists in Ukraine.
TYMOFII
That’s what I tell everyone, so I’ll be answering all the questions here.
Why aren’t universities ready for young rectors?
VIKTOR
At 34, you became the youngest university rector in Ukraine. I know there was skepticism, including because of your age. Why do you think universities are not ready for young rectors?
TYMOFII
This is a multilayered issue. If you look globally at top universities – think of Harvard, Oxford. I once studied at Utrecht University – their top management consists of fairly mature and experienced people. There is no expectation that a young person must come in and create disruption or drive development. In Europe and the United States, age is often a sign of a long career path and accumulated experience. People may be older, but they are competent, they stay up to date, and they keep developing. In short, they are modern and effective. You can be older and still be progressive.
Unfortunately, in Ukraine, we live in a reality where universities and higher education in general are an industry in constant crisis. The best people often leave higher education. People are initially drawn to it because they want to grow and learn. There are even family traditions – parents studied at a university, so their children go there as well.
VIKTOR
And their children will study there too.
TYMOFII
At the same time, universities are centers of human capital. Very talented and ambitious people study there. But then they leave. Because there are no competitive salaries, no real opportunities for growth. Public universities often suffer from excessive bureaucracy. I am not naive – we can talk about corruption, outdated institutional culture, harassment, and other issues. These problems do exist in higher education. As a result, the best people either move to other industries or leave the country. We have developed a stereotype that a rector is a “male profession” – someone managerial, older, authoritative. A young person, by contrast, may be perceived as unprofessional, as a “show-off,” or as someone who does not belong.
So, of course, there is skepticism. It is rooted in stereotypes deeply embedded in our society. And I actually think this is harmful. If we have reached a point where we believe a young person must come in and “break everything,” that signals a deeper issue. In Europe or the U.S., this is not the case. It indicates that our higher education sector is still highly unstructured and chaotic. Sometimes an older rector can be effective, sometimes a younger one can be effective. There is simply no consistent system or order in place.
VIKTOR
Are you a good rector?
TYMOFII
I can say that now. I used to be afraid of it and even embarrassed. When I had just become rector, I could not even say the word “rector.” I would jokingly call myself a “rector-shmector” as a way to deflect it. I didn’t believe it and was overly modest. But after a few years in the role, I’ve accepted that I am the rector. I’m no longer afraid or embarrassed by it. I’ve also become more respectable. Now I’m a manager – I shake hands with staff and say, “Good morning!”
VIKTOR
Do you greet everyone?
TYMOFII
Of course – I greet everyone: students, faculty. I’ll even help push a car if it gets stuck somewhere in front of the university.
VIKTOR
Do you think students like you?
TYMOFII
I’d like to believe so. Our university is developing very dynamically, and its culture is not yet fully established. A few years ago, the Kyiv School of Economics was only a master’s program. At the beginning, KSE was just a master’s degree in economics. Now there is a bachelor’s degree. Beyond that, new fields are emerging – we now have engineering.
VIKTOR
And you also have a postgraduate studies.
TYMOFII
Yes, now there is also a postgraduate course. And that means we are bringing together people from different cultures, including faculty. We have international professors – not part-time or symbolic hires, but people physically on campus, on full contracts for three to five years. There are Poles, Germans, Americans, French, Italians. There are Ukrainians like me with Western education. Tymofii Mylovanov, who spent many years in the U.S., returned to Ukraine. There are also Ukrainians trained entirely within the national system – someone joined us from Kyiv National Economic University. What does this mean? It means different cultures. And people may not always understand one another. Often, when people from different cultures interact, conflicts can arise. Sometimes it’s as if snobbery is present. For example, researchers may say that no one values science – that teaching students is a distraction, and what really matters is generating new ideas and innovations. On the other hand, educators may call this snobbery, arguing that the main mission is to care about students, to teach them, to prepare young people for the economy. In other words, people can have fundamentally different visions.
The same applies to students. Some are mature master’s students, for whom this is already a second degree. Others are very young – just out of high school. Do they all equally understand who the rector is? Do they all feel the same about him? Do they all like him? I doubt it, but we are trying. We are trying to build a community. I think we have avoided excessive bureaucracy and hierarchy because the university is still young and dynamic. For example, I don’t have a private office, and neither does Mylovanov. We sit in the cafeteria, in the hallways, and simply talk to everyone. There are many horizontal connections, and a lot depends on them.
“Corruption is like a kind of virus that exists within universities.”
VIKTOR
You mentioned corruption. Is there corruption at the university?
TYMOFII
At ours?
VIKTOR
At yours, of course.
TYMOFII
No. The short answer is no. In Ukraine, corruption is a strange phenomenon – it’s almost like a virus present in universities. And for me, it doesn’t really matter whether it’s a public or a private institution. In public universities, there may be a lack of resources, excessive bureaucracy, and a small group of people informally holding power. Corruption can become an informal mechanism for resolving issues. But private universities are not all the same either. This is also reflected in academic literature on post-Soviet transformations. It was formed in many post-Soviet countries
market. Previously, there was a planned economy – a market economy became. Universities became players in that market – and some simply started selling diplomas. It was no longer about the quality of education, but about issuing credentials for money. In that sense, corruption can exist in both public and private institutions. The key is to actively prevent it. This requires proper HR practices – recruiting people who have zero tolerance for corruption. It requires monitoring, clear policies, and immediate responses. We now have many new people joining us. With the introduction of undergraduate programs, we are attracting individuals who had never heard of us before. And sometimes people come with certain expectations – hints like, “Can we talk to the rector?” or “Can we bring a little envelope?” They are immediately turned away. People bring their own cultural habits into a new environment – I mean parents, in particular.
There are universities in Ukraine that have made anti-corruption a core policy – such as the Ukrainian Catholic University, Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, ourselves, and others. I think large public universities may simply be too big to manage effectively. Even if a strong rector comes in, imagine the scale of monitoring and control needed just to dismantle entrenched systems.
About private and public universities
VIKTOR
It’s all in people’s mindset. I didn’t ask about corruption by accident. It’s one of the reasons I’ve stayed with you for so long as a lecturer. This is a key issue, because you understand its value for yourself, and it shapes the culture. KSE is often cited as an example of a modern educational institution. Tell me, what is your key difference from public universities, and why do you think private universities are better? I’ll quote you: “We genuinely believe that if universities had private ownership, they would be more efficient.” Where does this conclusion come from?
TYMOFII
This is an interesting question. I’ve actually changed my perspective over time, because I was trained as a sociologist – that’s my background. When sociologists go through their academic path – bachelor’s, master’s, PhD – we constantly study inequality and public policy. In principle, both my ideology and my profession push me toward advocating for the public good. Sociologists are, by default, people who fight for public good. Mainstream economists tend to advocate for markets, while mainstream sociologists advocate for regulation. There is a built-in tension between these approaches. But on this issue, I actually stand on the side of privatization and private universities. I believe that in Ukraine’s current macro environment, if we want to reform and develop education and science, we essentially have no alternative but to pursue strong deregulation and allow private players – honest and capable private players – to operate. Let me break down my arguments.
First, we have to be realistic – we simply don’t have the money. You know this better than I do, but it seems that even the entire national budget of Ukraine may be smaller than the endowment of some American universities.
VIKTOR
100%. Even just Harvard.
TYMOFII
Exactly. So we shouldn’t be naive – we simply don’t have the financial resources for public universities to develop properly. That’s one point. Universities will have to look for funding on their own, on the market. But to raise funds, you need to hire strong people. To operate in the market, you need good managers, fundraisers, financial specialists. But how do you hire them if you don’t have money? This is a classic “Catch-22” – you are trapped by design. Second, public sector bureaucracy. Even though public universities now formally have autonomy, there is still a large amount of regulation that prevents them from functioning effectively. For example, during the full-scale invasion, many universities started to become more proactive because they needed funding. They began creating alumni associations, public organizations, something else to make money. But even 20 years ago, when I was a student, faculties didn’t even have their own accounts. You simply couldn’t do anything at the faculty level because of overregulation. And this problem still persists.
If you look at professional Facebook groups, talk to people, or attend academic conferences – what do universities talk about? The ministry. “The ministry did something wrong,” “the ministry doesn’t allow this,” “the ministry imposes bad regulations.” People constantly focus on the ministry. Instead of thinking about how to develop their sector, their people, or how to raise funding, they keep focusing on the ministry. But if you talk to the ministry – you hear the opposite: “We’ve already changed everything, we’ve given them autonomy – why don’t they use it? No one is regulating them; they should act independently.” This suggests a market asymmetry. There is both regulation and a lack of understanding of that regulation. Some areas may already be deregulated, but the institutional culture remains outdated. People continue to follow old rules, even when the ministry says they no longer apply.
I am listing examples of public universities to me they seem to be ineffective in today’s Ukraine. Because there are at the same time and outdated bureaucracy, and outdated culture, and management design. Example: in order to elect a rector, the labor team must vote for it. And then the rector must sign a contract with the ministry. I think it doesn’t work. Imagine that you have a big company and you have to run this company, and the team chooses a manager who then just plays with you some status quo. The manager wants to get elected, so with the labor team…
VIKTOR
Like elections to parliament…
TYMOFII
Yes. And that creates an open door for populism and the preservation of the status quo. In private universities, there can be a board of directors. For example, I could be dismissed tomorrow. I have a contract with my supervisor – there is a president, Tymofii Mylovanov, and there is a Board of Directors. They appointed me, and they can dismiss me.
That is why I believe that, in this historical period, private universities will be able to raise more funding, hire better people, and move faster than public ones. I am not saying that the state is always ineffective, but I am saying that right now – during the war and in the context of post-war reconstruction and European integration – competing with the European Union for students will be extremely difficult. And I do not see how public universities can succeed in this competition unless they change. How can they change? Through reforms in governance systems, changes in how rectors are elected, changes in financial systems, and improvements in management.
In the United States, there are private universities, and there are state universities – institutions funded at the state level. For example, Berkeley is a state university, meaning it receives funding from the state budget. Stanford is private. Harvard is private. Berkeley is “public” in the sense that it belongs to the state. And a representative of the state sits on its governing board. Whoever provides funding has representation on the board.
My point is that different combinations are possible – the key is to have a high-quality governance body that can monitor and act quickly.
KSE Rector Tymofii Brik: Higher education in Ukraine is an industry in a constant state of crisis
Deputy Head of the SASU V. Marushevskyi: When a country says there are no violations – that is a bad signal for the EU
Minister of Social Policy Denys Uliutin: Social Support Cannot Be Permanent
Chasing the Cruiser: Why Universities Need Scale and Big Money
VIKTOR
And you said we wouldn’t talk about money. Let’s talk a bit about money. Funding for education in Ukraine. In 2026, it is almost UAH 150 billion, of which slightly less than UAH 53 billion is allocated to higher education.
TYMOFII
Harvard’s endowment is USD 40 billion. One university.
VIKTOR
I looked at KSE’s budget – currently, official data is available only for 2024 – it is UAH 300 million, for the university alone.
TYMOFII
Let’s switch to dollars.
VIKTOR
That’s approximately USD 8 million.
TYMOFII
We call this, conditionally, the operating budget. The university runs on this – paying salaries, covering student-related costs, faculty expenses, campus maintenance, and so on. And the budget has been growing over the years. The most recent budget we planned was USD 17 million – just to ensure that students can study and faculty can teach. We try to calculate this on a per-student basis.
VIKTOR
How much does one student cost you?
TYMOFII
Let’s choose a better word – we can call it an investment in a student. Not a cost, but an investment. Depending on the program, it ranges from USD 5,000 to 15,000 per student per year. For example, the mathematics program is the most expensive.
VIKTOR
Seriously?
TYMOFII
There are few students and many instructors.
VIKTOR
But the average score on the NMT (Ukraine’s National Multi-Subject Test, a standardized university entrance exam) among applied mathematics students is the highest – 173.
TYMOFII
Yes. A new faculty has been established. It includes a master’s program in mathematics, as well as applied and fundamental mathematics. We have recruited very talented students.
However, the NMT is a controversial test. For example, a winner of a national physics or mathematics olympiad may score poorly on the NMT – simply because they are a gifted student deeply engaged in mathematics and not interested in preparing for standardized testing. We have cases where highly talented students perform poorly on the NMT. And there are cases where students “grind” for the test, achieve high scores, and then drop out of university. So we treat the NMT as an indicator we need to work with, but we remain skeptical of it.
There are still relatively few students because these are new faculties. We carefully select talented students, and unfortunately, the pool is limited. To clarify: there are many talented young people in Ukraine, but specifically in mathematics and physics – those who win olympiads – it is always a limited group. Many of them leave the country. And those who stay often choose traditional paths, such as the mechanics and mathematics faculty at Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv (a leading public university in Ukraine).
VIKTOR
Or KPI (Igor Sikorsky Kyiv Polytechnic Institute, a major technical university).
TYMOFII
Exactly. It is an established market. You cannot simply enter it and win immediately. You need to work to earn the trust of these students so that they choose you. We have faculty members recruited from the international market. Our dean, Mariia Vlasenko, for example, worked as a mathematician in Ireland and later in Poland, then moved to Ukraine and brought several Polish colleagues with her.
VIKTOR
But say the key thing – who is she?
TYMOFII
That’s something else. We also have Maryna Viazovska on our Advisory Board – she is a Fields Medal laureate, essentially the Nobel Prize of mathematics. Only two women in history have received it…
VIKTOR
And one of them is with you?
TYMOFII
Yes. She is Ukrainian, works in Lausanne, and serves on our supervisory board. She helped us design the program and recruit faculty. We have instructors who teach in English, representing different nationalities – Egyptian, Polish, French. They come from various universities – some from Amsterdam, some from Oxford, some from the Polish Academy of Sciences.
But what does this mean? It means these are expensive professionals. To bring a modern academic from Amsterdam to Kyiv, you have to pay them – and pay a premium. Because they are taking a risk by leaving a stable career opportunity for what is, in many ways, an uncertain venture in Kyiv. That is why we focus heavily on fundraising and partnerships – Tymofii Mylovanov plays a major role in this. As a result, we can offer competitive salaries. A mathematician who could work in Amsterdam instead works with us. And then we take that salary and divide it by the number of students. This represents a significant investment – USD 5,000 to 15,000 per student per year. That is what we are doing now, and we aim to increase it further. We benchmark ourselves against institutions such as the Central European University (CEU), the London School of Economics, and MIT.
VIKTOR
A strong benchmark.
TYMOFII
Stanford, Harvard. If you calculate per student, they can invest USD 100,000–120,000 per student. I mention this so we are not naive – building internationally competitive education is not easy. Without substantial funding, nothing can be achieved. And to secure that level of funding, you need scale. We have a certain public reputation – we can sometimes be seen as confrontational or provocative, like when we talk about “buying Mohyla” (Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, a leading Ukrainian university). But where does this come from? From the understanding that we need to scale.
If we combine the Ukrainian Catholic University, Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, and the Kyiv School of Economics, we would still be smaller than Harvard or the Central European University. Sometimes I feel like I’m sailing in a wooden boat while a cruiser passes by at full speed. When we argue about who is better – KPI or Kharkiv Polytechnic, KSE or UCU – from the perspective of that cruiser, it simply doesn’t matter what is happening in our sandbox. We need to come together, consolidate, raise ten times more funding, hire internationally, bring Ukrainians back, and only then will anything change.
That is why we are growing – we need scale. Sometimes we are criticized: “Why are you expanding? Why are you increasing student numbers?” Because without scale, nothing will work.
How Kyiv School of Economics competes for prospective students
VIKTOR
You mentioned that you strongly compete for prospective students – future applicants. And these are children, many of whom are considering leaving the country. This is a major issue. The initiative of Olena Zelenska (First Lady of Ukraine, leading social and educational initiatives) conducted a survey among teenagers and parents…
TYMOFII
And who conducted that survey?
VIKTOR
You did! Go ahead.
TYMOFII
Finish the quote first.
VIKTOR
It’s not a quote – it’s a question. How serious is the trend of young people wanting to leave the country? How can it be stopped? How can we motivate them to stay in Ukraine and enroll in Ukrainian universities – public or private? Do you know what motivates your students to choose you and remain in Ukraine?
TYMOFII
I feel like saying something controversial.
VIKTOR
Go ahead – something provocative.
TYMOFII
Maybe we shouldn’t preserve these universities at all? I deeply value this investment in the future – when a young person chooses whether to develop in Europe, in the United States, or stay in Ukraine. But if someone stays in Ukraine, enrolls in a university that is outdated, corrupt, and shaped by a culture of harassment – that is a crime. That person could have developed, achieved something, grown – but instead, that opportunity is taken away. Emotionally, I am very triggered by our higher education system, which is still partly stuck in stagnation. It represents lost opportunities.
Ironically, we are a private university, yet we produce a public good. Half of our students do not pay tuition. We have a very expensive tuition fee, but they do not pay it. Future mathematicians, engineers, economists study with us for free and then go on to work in Ukraine’s economy, build businesses, and advance science. They didn’t pay for this. You didn’t pay for this. Donors paid for it. We are effectively creating a public good for Ukraine free of charge. And it frustrates me when I walk past, for example, an old public university with an empty dormitory. There are no students – they study online. The building is not renovated. And I think: this is inefficiency. Give us that dormitory – we would create high-quality education there. Your question was how to keep young people here. Give us that dormitory – we would renovate it in such a way that students would want to live there and study properly. So part of the answer is better allocation and more efficient use of resources.
You are right – many people decide to go abroad. This was true even before the full-scale war, and even more so now. Personally, for three years in a row, I have contacted winners of various olympiads – by phone, Instagram, even Telegram (I admit, I have Telegram because young people use it). For example, there was news about a talented Ukrainian girls’ team winning an international mathematics olympiad. Or last year, in Australia, Ukrainian students won silver medals, and one student won gold. These are outstanding individuals. I write to them, and they reply: “Sorry, but two years ago we already decided to go to Cambridge.” That means an 11th-grade student made this decision two years earlier.
VIKTOR
So by the time you contact them, you are already at least two years too late?
TYMOFII
Exactly. And the question is: how do you compete with Cambridge? You don’t. And honestly, I’m happy for them. A talented individual should realize their full potential at the best university in the world. Why should I stop them? Our position is this: if you have the opportunity to study abroad at a top-100 university – great, that’s your choice. But if you are leaving not for education, but for safety, or because you don’t understand the market…
Sometimes parents push their children into relatively weak, provincial universities in Slovakia, Poland, or Bulgaria. But maybe it would be better to study at UCU or at Taras Shevchenko University? So how do we retain students? Based on what we see, the answer is opportunities. Two key elements: opportunity and identity. Many young people genuinely believe in Ukraine. They want to stay and contribute. They sometimes argue with their parents, who say: “We want a better and safer future for you, and you don’t understand this.” And the student responds: “No, I want to return to Ukraine and be useful.” This is a powerful motivation. But they also need real opportunities – real challenges. If a student understands that they can study in English in Germany, but also study in English in Kyiv – then why not choose Kyiv? Students in Ukraine have a unique advantage in terms of rapid employment. We have product companies, financial companies, and miltech…
VIKTOR
…you have the Center for Fiscal Policy Research, which, incidentally, also offers internships and then hires students.
TYMOFII
You know, internships can mean very different things. If you invited, say, 100 rectors here, they would all tell you they have internships, dual education, ties with business. But one thing is what exists on paper, and another is what exists in reality. You have to create real opportunities. When you have a professor with a PhD here, when you have a top business figure or a government official teaching here. We are sometimes criticized because some of our lecturers are serving government officials.
VIKTOR
That’s great. Excellent.
TYMOFII
For a student, that is an opportunity to see the person, understand how they think, how they speak, build connections, and gain insights. Imagine that later you want to apply for a job or an internship, and they ask you: “What makes you different from the other candidates? All of you have the same résumé.” And you say: “Actually, I’m already connected with the government, and I have a lot of insights that no one else has.” These are the opportunities students need, and they respond to them. But for us, budget-wise, this means we spend a great deal on marketing. That also emotionally triggers me. I hope the time will come when we will not have to spend so much on marketing, on attracting students. People do not really understand what education is, and in our culture parents have a very strong influence over their children. Our advertising is not just “Come to KSE.” In reality, we are doing something closer to explanatory and outreach work: what education is, why it matters, what a private university is. We genuinely have to explain a great deal before someone decides to come to us. So we are forced to invest heavily in marketing. But we could be spending that money on salaries or new laboratories instead.
The online generation: how universities are addressing learning losses
VIKTOR
Then let’s talk about the quality of education, especially in wartime conditions. Blackouts, air raid alerts, COVID. Many first and second-year students – those in the earlier years of university – have really known only online education. What is the level of these young people, and what should we expect in the future?
TYMOFII
During COVID, we studied on campus, but we had to comply with all the rules: wear masks, seat people properly. That was expensive. You had to put a lot of effort into the administration of it all. Managers had to think about it, spend their time planning; coordinators had to arrange everything correctly. Then, when the full-scale invasion began, we first operated online. But once it became clear that we were definitely staying in Kyiv, already in the first year of the invasion, in September, we built shelters. A very large team worked to make sure we had them. And these were not just places where you could wait things out. They were classrooms – with chairs, a board, internet…
VIKTOR
…everything connected to the system, recordings.
TYMOFII
Yes. So when there is an air raid alert, you go down and continue doing mathematics in the shelter. This focus on offline learning is very important. Why? In education, there is a term: “learning losses.” It refers to what you failed to learn in school. You attend school, but by the time you graduate after the 11th grade, you may actually have a weak grasp of mathematics or physics. That is what we call learning losses. And the latest PISA studies show that Ukrainians are lagging two years behind average European indicators. That means it is as if we effectively missed two years of schooling. You go to school, but it is as though two years of learning never really happened. It is clear why: COVID, air raid alerts, and so on. What does this mean? It means young people need extra support to catch up. Even the most talented, the smartest students, those who score 200 on the NMT (Ukraine’s National Multi-Subject Test, a standardized university entrance exam), can come in with gaps in their knowledge – gaps they themselves do not even realize they have until they start speaking with a lecturer.
Second, they have little experience working in groups or teams. But education is often group work; it is also about soft skills. Third, unfortunately, there is the issue of academic integrity, because in schools there is simply a culture of cheating, a culture of formalism – doing homework just to tick a box. So these brilliant, talented, promising students come in with high NMT scores, yet they cannot write an essay, cannot divide work properly in a team, cannot retell something clearly in their own words. That means that during the first year, you have to invest heavily in working with them: through extra classes, through so-called office hours where you give them a lot of individual mentoring, through mentors among older students.
We even had a conflict with one American lecturer. She came in and taught in a very hardcore, American style. She would walk in and teach highly advanced macroeconomics in English. The students did not understand. And, in her view, that was their problem. They could study at home, work in teams, or fail out. “I’m a top lecturer – it’s not my concern what is happening with the students.” But they cannot just go home and study independently, because they do not yet have the skill of learning independently, and they cannot study properly in groups either. So we had a conflict because we asked the lecturer, roughly speaking, to teach at a lower threshold. And she saw that as interference with her academic freedom. Her view was: “You hired me to teach, so why are you interfering now?” We resolved that conflict, but it is important to understand the context: learning losses are real, and they need to be addressed.
For me personally, this was also a lesson. I started learning to show empathy. I began to understand young people better and to meet them halfway more often. Because when I was studying, there was a kind of hazing mentality: “I suffered at Utrecht, so you have to suffer too.”
VIKTOR
I remember your posts.
TYMOFII
But in reality, they need help. You cannot write them off immediately if they have a bad first semester. They need more mentoring.
VIKTOR
So earlier you expelled more students, and now fewer?
TYMOFII
We do expel students. Our statistics have remained consistent in recent years – after the first year, about 30% of first-year students leave. But they leave for different reasons. Some leave on their own – that’s the largest group. They simply cannot keep up, they apologize, and they go. Some take academic leave. There are also cases related to academic integrity. Academic misconduct includes cheating, plagiarism, improper use of artificial intelligence. AI is allowed, but it must be disclosed. If a student is repeatedly caught violating these rules, we part ways. It’s difficult. And we are trying to design a system that prevents losing them. We are not sadists, and we do not practice hazing. We do not expel students to humiliate them or to say: “We are excellent, and you do not meet our standards.” That would be unnecessary snobbery. If we admit a student, that student is already part of our community. We must provide all possible tools for them to continue learning and support them when needed.
Artificial intelligence in education — is it an opportunity or a threat?
VIKTOR
We’ve smoothly transitioned into the topic of artificial intelligence. What is your position: is AI in education an opportunity or a threat? Should universities fight against its use, or simply legalize it?
TYMOFII
Of course – legalize it. There is actually a complex strategic challenge here. We sometimes debate: what kind of graduate do we want to produce? When a person enters the workforce, their manager gives them a task – no one cares whether they use a calculator, books, or AI. What matters is completing the task. And we want our students to complete tasks quickly and effectively. On the other hand, we want to train them to develop independence – to build that “muscle” of learning and thinking for themselves. If we give them too much freedom, and they simply copy or rely entirely on AI, they will not develop a moral compass, an internal structure. They will not learn how to be independent, deep, and professional. So we need to find a balance.
The idea is to treat artificial intelligence as a kind of “synthetic person.” AI is your assistant, your partner. We allow students to work in groups on assignments – so why wouldn’t we allow them to work with a “synthetic person”? Whether it’s with a parent, a friend, or AI – the key is disclosure. Our core value is honesty. If you declare it, you can use it. That’s one part of the answer. The second part: AI is a modern technology, and we are obligated to teach students how to use modern technologies. It allows people to complete routine tasks more efficiently, to learn and develop faster. That’s great – we should provide students with this tool. And since this is a global disruption, no one really knows what will happen. Perhaps in ten years, science and education will be completely transformed. So we have no choice – this disruption is happening with or without us. It would be irresponsible to ignore it and pretend AI does not exist.
VIKTOR
And the ship will sail on, while we remain somewhere behind in our little boat…
TYMOFII
We need to push both ourselves and our students in that direction. Public or private – it applies to everyone. In fact, I think for public universities this is an even greater opportunity. It offers a way to manage universities more efficiently. The main problems of public universities are excessive bureaucracy, lack of funding, and lack of personnel. Therefore, processes need to be automated. Large student cohorts need to be assessed and taught more efficiently. Standardized grading for assignments needs to be done faster. This is a matter of optimization. And optimization is easier with AI tools. So I believe AI is actually an opportunity for public universities.
VIKTOR
So your university is not afraid of artificial intelligence – just use it within the rules?
TYMOFII
First, yes. And second, this goes beyond the university itself. AI tools are used in all business processes – by those who create schedules, those who work in finance, those in communications. It has to be integrated across the board. A university should not be isolated from the broader ecosystem in this regard.
About the optical illusion of division: why it seems like we are not united
VIKTOR
On Day of Unity of Ukraine, you gave a lecture based on 30 years of sociological data. In your Facebook post, you wrote that Ukrainian society is fundamentally quite homogeneous – that we share common values. I’ll quote: “Overall, we are a fairly united nation, although many try to distort this perception through propaganda and disinformation.” How has the war affected our unity? And is it true that we are so cohesive that these large-scale conflicts on social media cannot divide us? And that, in principle, our institutions can function normally, and much of the perceived division is actually Russian propaganda?
TYMOFII
This is a very complex topic. As a sociologist, I work on it extensively. There is a long-standing stereotype that I cannot seem to overcome. Sometimes I feel like I am in the minority, because most Ukrainians believe that we are a highly divided, polarized country. If you talk to, say, a taxi driver, or my mother, or a neighbor – most people will say that we are divided. There is a lot of rhetoric about societal fractures. When I am invited to speak publicly, I am often directly asked: “Tymofii, how can we overcome divisions in Ukrainian society?” The assumption is that these divisions exist and must be addressed. But my question is: what evidence do we have that such divisions actually exist? This is where deeper analysis is needed. As a sociologist, I think about this in layers. The first layer is values, then identities, and then political views. Let me explain.
Values are very fundamental. Sociologists measure values – they are deep, underlying things, often not fully conscious, but embedded within you. These are not about brands or political parties – they are abstract. For example, the value of freedom, individualism, or collectivism. All the research I know shows that Ukrainians are very similar in terms of fundamental values. Across generations, across regions – whether on one side of the Zbruch River or the other, in Donetsk region or Khmelnytskyi region – our core values are very similar. First, we share similar patterns of trust. We tend not to trust formal institutions, but we trust people close to us. Fundamentally, we all value things like security, justice, and care for others. If we look at these deep-level values, we are very similar. Meanwhile, research conducted in Russia before the invasion (I followed this closely from a values perspective), using frameworks such as the Inglehart scale and Schwartz’s theory, typically showed regional variation. In other words, Russia displayed diversity in fundamental values, while Ukraine showed relative uniformity. Yet the stereotype persists that Ukraine is divided, while Russia is not. In reality, from the perspective of fundamental values, the opposite appears to be true.
VIKTOR
So is this perhaps deliberately imposed?
TYMOFII
I think it’s more a lack of reflection. I don’t think it’s imposed. It’s like an optical illusion. You believe in an optical illusion until you use a specific tool to examine it. Society works in a similar way. You look around – left, right – you observe society, and your first interpretation is an illusion that is very easy to believe. Take the Orange Revolution (2004 mass protests over election fraud in Ukraine). Do you remember the electoral maps?
VIKTOR
Of course.
TYMOFII
Here 50% voted one way, there 50% voted another.
VIKTOR
When you spoke about Ukraine’s unity and the lack of unity in the aggressor state, that map immediately came to mind. That’s why I asked whether this perception was deliberately imposed.
TYMOFII
That map is deeply embedded in our thinking. We often interpret Ukraine through the lens of regional and electoral differences. And we assume that if such differences exist, then we must be a divided nation. But that is a superficial conclusion – it only appears that way.
VIKTOR
Still, when you look at voting results…
TYMOFII
Let’s dig deeper. We’ve already discussed fundamental values. The next layer is identity. Identity is how you define yourself. There are often regional and national identities, and these have been measured since the 1990s. If you ask a Ukrainian, “Who do you consider yourself to be?” – in the 1990s, about 40% would primarily say “Ukrainian.” Today, it is around 70%. So perhaps it is true that in the past we were more divided in terms of identity. But year by year, we are becoming more similar. This is what is called convergence. Statistically, people of different genders, ages, and regions have been moving toward increasingly similar national identities.
There is a researcher, Nataliia Chernysh, who studied Donetsk and Lviv in the 1990s and early 2000s. She asked open-ended questions: “Who are you? How do you define your identity?” People responded in different ways: “I am a man,” “I am a woman,” “I am an intellectual,” “I am a miner,” “I am local,” “I am a Christian,” “I am a democrat,” “I am a nationalist.” She coded and analyzed these responses and found that, in terms of content, identities did differ. For example, in Lviv people might say, “I am from Lviv,” while in Donetsk they might say, “I am a miner.” These are different expressions. But in terms of typology, she found that in Donetsk, over time, both regional and national identities were strengthening. In other words, just as Lviv had a strong regional and Ukrainian national identity, Donetsk was also moving in that direction. People may have articulated their identity differently – sometimes in Russian, with different cultural references – but it was still a regional and national identity. Where people once said, “I am a miner,” they increasingly began to say, “I am from Donetsk,” “I am Ukrainian.” So my argument is that, in terms of identity, we were already on a path toward unity.
Then comes the third layer – political views. Political views are situational. They change depending on information, education, and personal circumstances. As I mentioned, I am a sociologist. At one point, I supported public universities. Then I became a rector – and changed my position. Now I support private universities.
VIKTOR
Your position depends on where you sit.
TYMOFII
Exactly. But fundamentally, I remain Ukrainian. That does not change. There are core elements that stay with you, and there are flexible elements that change. These flexible elements are often shaped by regional context – local monuments, how you were taught in school, local media, the local economy, whether you grew up in agricultural fields or in industrial mining areas. These local factors do influence us. But it is a mistake to assume that differences automatically mean division. Difference is not the same as division. For example, some people prefer tea, others prefer coffee – but that does not mean they will fundamentally oppose each other. When we talk about division or polarization, we mean something deeper. It implies that we either cannot unite around a shared goal or may even come into conflict. For instance, some people voted for one candidate, others for another. But that does not prevent them from uniting. During the invasion, they can unite around a common purpose – defending their territory and national identity. So the surface impression is that we have many divisions. But empirically, these are not divisions – they are situational differences in preferences that lead to arguments within certain “bubbles,” yet do not prevent us from uniting around a larger goal. That’s about it.
First Deputy Governor of the NBU: The IMF does not come to countries that are doing well
Alyona Shkrum: “Right now, we are fighting for every $15 million for reconstruction”
Head of the Budget Committee of the VRU, Roksolana Pidlasa: “I don’t understand why some parliamentary factions vote out of spite”
“Education and science are the very fairway for shaping the future.”
VIKTOR
What is your big goal?
TYMOFII
A big goal… I still feel a bit uncomfortable when I hear those words. I’m not used to framing things that way, but I do have one – actually, two. I’ve only recently articulated them. They are both professional goals.
My first year at university coincided with the Orange Revolution. Then there was Euromaidan, in which I did not participate because I was abroad. Now I live in Ukraine, as a civilian, during wartime. My worldview has been strongly shaped by the idea of Ukraine’s development. I understand it may sound grand, but this is what my generation lives by. And my two professional goals are connected to Ukraine’s development. The first is sociology. I am, after all, a sociologist, even though my main job now is being a rector. My calendar is that of a rector, my salary is that of a rector, my concerns are those of a rector – but I don’t forget that I am a sociologist. I dream of building a modern Ukrainian school of sociology – one that is recognized internationally. For example, I know about sociologists at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, at Nuffield College in Oxford, in Utrecht. I read their work, I know these people. I dream that there will be Europeans who know that there is a Kyiv School of Sociology. That when someone discusses, say, the sociology of religion, they might say: “Let’s consult the Kyiv School of Sociology – they work on religion. We should read their latest publication.” That is my dream. I truly want to make it happen. The second goal is tied to my current role. I genuinely dream of creating a world-class university in Ukraine.
VIKTOR
How do you see KSE in 10 years?
TYMOFII
More or less as it is now. I don’t think we will change dramatically in ten years. We will grow quantitatively. A real breakthrough could happen next year – or in thirty years. It’s somewhat random. It depends on opportunity. If an opportunity appears, you seize it. Hypothetically, if Bill Gates walked in right now, we would seize that opportunity, take his billions, and build a university. Or perhaps we will have to wait thirty years for something like that – I don’t know.
In ten years, I think it will be a large, global university. Global in the sense that a significant share of teaching will be in English, and most faculty will have international backgrounds. These could be Ukrainians with Western PhDs or foreign academics. It will likely no longer be called the “Kyiv School of Economics,” but something like “Kyiv University,” with multiple schools under it: a School of Economics, a School of Engineering, a School of Natural Sciences, a School of Humanities, a Medical School, a Military Academy. There will be many faculties – but the real question is not the number of faculties. The question is when it will become truly prestigious.
Everyone knows what the London School of Economics is. No one necessarily knows how many faculties or students it has – but the name itself carries weight. The moment will come when someone in Italy, the United States, or Mexico will know what the Kyiv School of Economics is. I don’t think that will happen in ten years – but in 30–50 years, it is realistic. And I want to contribute to that. Our names will likely not be remembered. Honestly, does anyone know the names of those who founded KPI, Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv, or the London School of Economics? Probably only a small group of enthusiasts. Our names may be forgotten – but the university must exist. And I want to join the creation of such a university
VIKTOR
To shape the future through education.
TYMOFII
Yes – automatically. Education and science are the main channel for shaping the future.
VIKTOR
And one final question for today: why “a sociologist from Obolon”?
TYMOFII
That’s a very simple question – because it’s true. Who am I? I’m a person born in Obolon (a district of Kyiv), I live in Obolon, I love Obolon, and I’m a sociologist. So who am I? I’m a sociologist from Obolon.
VIKTOR
Now it’s clear why KSE bought a new campus in Obolon – to keep things close.
TYMOFII
I can even give a sociological explanation for that. We’ve already touched on identity. This is something deeply embedded for many Ukrainians. We all carry both national and regional identities. There are Ukrainians from Halychyna, from Volyn, from Kyiv, from Slobozhanshchyna. This combination of regional and national identity has been with us for a long time, very deeply rooted. If you talk to people from different regions, they will tell you the same. For example, try telling someone from Mariupol that they are from Donbas – they will say: “No, this is Pryazovia.”
VIKTOR
We can ask – we have a colleague from Mariupol.
TYMOFII
Or if you call someone from Volyn “ Halychanyn,” they will say: “No, we are Volynians – don’t confuse us.” When I was a child, even within Obolon, there were divisions into microdistricts. I was from the fourth microdistrict, and we had a rivalry with the first one. This is part of who we are. Ukrainians value their regional identities and combine them with national identity. So saying that I am a sociologist from Obolon, in my view, is a tribute to Ukrainian culture.
VIKTOR
Tymofii, thank you. This was “Budget Talks.” We talked a bit about budgets, but more about education, the future, and the idea that Ukrainians are not divided – we simply have certain differences. This podcast was created with the support of the International Renaissance Foundation. And most importantly, I want to thank our defenders for the opportunity to live and breathe in a free country.
TYMOFII
That is the most important thing. Thank you as well.
Acting Head of the State Tax Service: “A tax return reflects human lives”
Mayor of Mykolaiv: The hardest part of being a mayor is the daily battle against temptation.
School Meal Reform: Why upgrading school kitchens is not only - and not so much - about food
KSE Rector Tymofii Brik: Higher education in Ukraine is an industry in a constant state of crisis
Deputy Head of the SASU V. Marushevskyi: When a country says there are no violations – that is a bad signal for the EU
Minister of Social Policy Denys Uliutin: Social Support Cannot Be Permanent
First Deputy Governor of the NBU: The IMF does not come to countries that are doing well
Alyona Shkrum: “Right now, we are fighting for every $15 million for reconstruction”
Head of the Budget Committee of the VRU, Roksolana Pidlasa: “I don’t understand why some parliamentary factions vote out of spite”
Acting Head of the State Tax Service: “A tax return reflects human lives”
Mayor of Mykolaiv: The hardest part of being a mayor is the daily battle against temptation.