The sixth episode explores the intricacies of civil servants’ remuneration. How much should an official in Ukraine earn? Should bonuses of 700-800% exist? What are the risks of “cheap” civil servants? Why is an unprofessional civil servant a disaster for the state? Why do Ukrainians sometimes feel disillusioned when they join the civil service? In the new episode of the “Budget Talks” podcast, you will find answers to these and other pressing questions. Victor Mazharchuk, Head of the Fiscal Policy Research Center, and Kyrylo Klymenko, member of the Accounting Chamber, discuss the peculiarities of Ukrainian officials’ salaries.
VIKTOR
Today we have another episode of “Budget Talks.” I am honored to speak with Kyrylo Klymenko, a member of the Accounting Chamber. However, Kyrylo, I invited you not as a member of the Accounting Chamber, but as one of the best specialists who truly understands what civil service and civil service reform entail. You have spent a significant amount of time in the civil service and as an expert for international organizations, analyzing how the processes were carried out and shaping overall concepts. I am genuinely glad to have you here and congratulate you on your appointment. This is probably the best decision the Verkhovna Rada has made recently.
KYRYLO
Thank you for the invitation, for the high praise, and for this advance for the future. We will strive to meet expectations.
Can a Civil Servant Be Expensive?
VIKTOR
I am eagerly awaiting the day when the Accounting Chamber finally makes an important decision and properly allocates functional responsibilities, allowing you to focus on what you are most professional at. The civil service comprises a large number of professionals. Today, I would like to discuss salaries with you. Not just the salaries they currently receive. Recently, the phase ended where all civil servants and representatives of local self-government submitted their declarations to the NACP. As an analytical institution, we immediately collected, uploaded, and analyzed them. Today, we will talk a bit about this. So, access to data is one story, and salary itself is another. The question is: how much should a civil servant earn? Can a civil servant be expensive? And should there be bonuses of 700%, 800%, or even 1000%?
KYRYLO
These are very complex but very interesting questions, and they have been relevant throughout Ukraine’s years of independence. We constantly hear this “grand narrative” that officials earn a lot, while society does not live as well as it would like. Therefore, until we raise the average salary in the country to a decent level, all those who manage this process should receive an “average” salary, as the saying goes. This popular thesis among politicians often comes to the forefront because it resonates with society. However, we have already had such an experience when we underestimated a certain category of our fellow citizens who professionally engaged in what was potentially – and today we understand, truly – the defense of our state. I am talking about military personnel. In the 90s and early 2000s, being in the military was shameful because you couldn’t invite a girl to a cafe, to the movies, or buy her flowers, even as an officer. Society sincerely believed that we had no intention of attacking anyone, and thus maintaining a large army in the 21st century was pointless. We received a very painful lesson and experience and continue to pay for our underestimated steps, which led to our army being in a very poor state before the war. At least by this analogy, we can start talking about civil servants. Of course, each of us has our own experience with the civil service. On a household level, the civil servant starts with the housing office.
VIKTOR
A tax officer?
KYRYLO
That’s a more advanced understanding of the civil service. The first person we encounter who doesn’t provide the level of service we expected is the plumber from the housing office. We don’t think about him until we have water. When there’s no water, we want it fixed immediately. Our expectations and reality remain in slightly different dimensions. So, we extrapolate our…
VIKTOR
Sorry to interrupt you. We collected declarations. While preparing for today’s episode, I decided to see who earned the most over the past 4 years, starting from 2020. And you will be surprised. I understand that it’s an error, technically a typo. But the person who earned the most was a master from the 11th housing maintenance company in the Holosiivskyi district of Kyiv.
KYRYLO
How much?
VIKTOR
He declared in 2022 – 221 billion 613 million 187 thousand 591 UAH.
KYRYLO
That’s a salary?
VIKTOR
That’s the salary at his primary place of work. We understand that it’s an error. It’s a technical mistake.
KYRYLO
Now there will be a line of people wanting to join that housing company.
VIKTOR
In second place, with a salary of 202 billion UAH, is a deputy head of the education department of one of the village councils in Ukraine.
KYRYLO
I think the entire education budget is less than one salary.
VIKTOR
These are, of course, jokes, but it’s a way to lighten the mood a bit.
KYRYLO
Yes, the human factor, as they say.
On the Nuances of Civil Service Reform, or Getting Used to Living in a New Way
VIKTOR
But when we talk about salaries now, in the past few months, since the beginning of the year, there have been many complaints from civil servants in local government that they are receiving less than before because the “bad Ministry of Finance” introduced a new salary system. I’ll tell you more: specialists from one of the embassies that provide us with substantial funding approached us. They asked us to communicate and explain to them if this is indeed the case because there have been appeals from the ministry. Everyone complains. Everyone says: the Ministry of Finance is bad, we are getting less. We started investigating and found that there are nuances. And here I would like to move on to the question of where it all started. Because this didn’t start now; it began in 2015 with a new law, the salary reform. And to talk about the issue of fairness, because salary is probably about fairness. You gave a good example about the military.
KYRYLO
By this logic, no one will ever like the Ministry of Finance because their function is directly opposite to the desire of all other government bodies to receive more resources and spend them on the area in which they are authorized to implement policy. And the Ministry of Finance, on the contrary, must ensure the maximum financing of all areas of society from a limited resource. Therefore, this is a natural conflict. No one likes the Ministry of Finance from this point of view, but it performs a very important function in the state. We respect it and the professionalism of its employees. But returning to the origins of today’s situation about the radical change in remuneration. The foundation of this change was laid, as you rightly say, back in 2015 in the new edition of the Law of Ukraine “On Civil Service,” which defined a fixed proportion between the stable salary, that is, the guaranteed part that a civil servant must receive for the work they constantly perform in their position. And this part should be at least 70%. And 30% of all a civil servant’s income, according to this law, should be this variable part. That is, this is a bonus that is paid to each employee for special achievements, by the decision of the manager. Of course, this is an idealistic system. It is, according to the legislator and the expert community, European experience, supposed to ensure, firstly, the stability of the civil service. You are guaranteed to understand the salary you are going to receive. And it reduces the risk of manipulating the variable part of the salary to encourage subordinates to do something to please the management. That is, to minimize this potential risk as much as possible, the general European practice was adopted so that the variable part was insignificant. This law came into force in May 2016. But the full enactment was constantly postponed. And from January 1, 2024, the Ministry of Finance, with the law on the state budget, put an end to this story. And as far as I feel the mood, this is already an irreversible story. That is, we have to get used to living in a new way.
VIKTOR
Yes. But even now there are nuances. Because there are certain institutions that fall out of the general rules. For example, the Secretariat of the Verkhovna Rada, which this year does not fall under the grades, and other institutions. That is, there are rules, but there are also exceptions. Probably, they should be; this is a normal question. But I also feel that this is an irreversible issue. Returning to the 70% to 30%, as you say. At that time, in the Office of Financial and Economic Analysis in the Verkhovna Rada, we conducted a huge study commissioned by the Regional Development Committee. We collected data on all salaries, salary structures, etc. (all ministries, the Cabinet of Ministers, the President’s Office, agencies, inspections) and looked at how this proportion changed starting from 2016, 2017, and 2018. Of course, the bonus part decreased. But an interesting story that we identified: if during the year it is small, then at the end of the year it increases significantly. And a few interesting cases were remembered when, for example, the Secretariat of the Cabinet of Ministers, despite the political will of the leadership to provide data (I am very grateful at that time to the Deputy Secretary of the Cabinet of Ministers Tetyana Kovtun, she was willing to provide data and did everything to provide them), but at the technical level, the chief accountant says: I cannot give you data. Why? Because specialists received 600-700% bonuses there. What did we do? We requested copies of documents, and the data we should have processed in 5 minutes, we processed manually for almost a month, converting from pdf to excel. A very similar story was in the Secretariat of the Verkhovna Rada and in the President’s Office – they did not want to provide data. Unfortunately, this is a problem. But now the Ministry of Finance, no matter how much everyone criticizes it, I would probably thank them for the grading reform. And for the reform, and for their dashboard on the number of employees in the civil service, vacant positions, and salaries. What’s interesting there? It is interesting to look at the average salary in all departments, in all categories, in all institutions. And it is constantly updated. Yesterday in the committee I heard a discussion. Verkhovna Rada employees were discussing the salaries of their leadership. Sorry, I digressed from the topic. Please tell me, but not only by the 2015 law did they want to change the approaches to salary, there was also an interesting initiative with the support of our European colleagues – specialists in reform issues, how well was it implemented?
Working for the government is very hard work
KYRYLO
This is an entirely different dimension, conditionally a projection from the salary. In fact, the salary of a civil servant is just a tool to retain them in the apparatus and to encourage others outside the civil service to join. Thus, the state acts as a regular employer. It competes with everyone else in the market to attract the best talents. How do we then use these best talents within the civil service? This is a matter of corporate culture, the reform of which must be a priority. People sometimes become disillusioned upon entering civil service, and they carry this disillusionment into society. Moreover, working for the government is very hard work. Emotionally hard. It is exhausting because, on the one hand, we adhere to the Labor Code, and on the other, we have constant overtime. Especially during wartime, during COVID, under the conditions of remote work, it demanded extraordinary efforts. The number of tasks that a civil servant has to perform, the deadlines, and the constant oversight. This creates high tension, which should be compensated. To attract the best specialists to the civil service, the European Union, together with the Ukrainian government, developed the Reform Specialists Concept. This occurred after the Revolution of Dignity, during an emotional uplift to renew the civil service and attract the best talents. Everything was funded by the EU, through the state budget, of course. A certain number of people were expected to work as civil servants and provide a different quality of governance, better analytics, and alternative decision-making options. Previously, under the classical practice of public administration, everything worked according to a template: the need to adopt a managerial act, amend the law, etc. Although this is just a way of implementing the agreed-upon policy. Modern approaches to public administration imply that we need to identify the problem first, then look at the various ways it can be solved. Then calculate how much each method will cost and make a decision, choosing an option. Then we write a law or a Cabinet resolution. We expected that the new quality would be brought by new people with decent salaries, but there were other nuances. Because every story has a reverse side, when people in the same agency, formally holding the same positions, received fundamentally different salaries.
VIKTOR
It seems the difference was almost twice, maybe a bit less.
KYRYLO
Something like that, yes, significantly. And it created tension within the apparatus and conflict: “Why did these young green ones come, they don’t know how to do anything.” Frankly, when a person comes from outside the civil service into a new environment…
VIKTOR
They don’t understand how it should function at all.
KYRYLO
Until they figure out how this huge system works slowly, because there are restrictions everywhere, because every step needs to be justified. In business, when the boss says something, it happens. Here, you need to go through a large circle of approvals, the specifics are unique. And of course, there needed to be an adaptation period. Further, there is a very big story about leadership and how they used this instrument, the reform specialists. If you attract graduates of Western universities to these positions, and then at meetings, they are asked just to take minutes. Instead of sharing their analytical developments and participating in policy-making. Naturally, this was disappointing and demotivated new ambitious civil servants. They didn’t show fundamentally different results, giving all other civil servants grounds to question why they are paid significantly more if they don’t deliver fundamentally different quality. But this is not a question of the reform itself, but of the nuances of its implementation, the personal factor, it’s about culture and empowering them.
VIKTOR
I absolutely agree with you on these points. There were also examples when existing specialists in some ministries were simply transferred to new positions and paid higher salaries for the same work they previously did. Perhaps in some cases, it was justified, but it should not have been a systemic thing.
KYRYLO
You know what this reform showed me personally? At its core, this reform was about the inability of the Ukrainian State Budget at that time to finance all civil servants at a decent level. So, thanks to the help of the EU, we were able to fund at least a certain number of positions openly, where people received decent salaries. And here, the question is not about how we use this instrument, but about fair compensation, which constantly catches up with us. Again, in today’s grading system.
VIKTOR
Then let’s return to the question of fairness. Fairness is conditionally a high sum? Or is it probably not very large discrepancies in pay for the same positions in different institutions? How can fairness be measured?
KYRYLO
It’s a complex concept, it cannot be measured by one factor alone. Of course, on one hand, if you work as a sysadmin, setting up computers in one ministry, the same function is needed in another ministry because we all use computer equipment. But in another ministry, the wage fund is larger because it is closer to…
VIKTOR
The ability to persuade.
KYRYLO
…to the government, it is influential. So they have bigger budgets and can pay more for the same job. On one hand, from the state’s perspective, this creates a negative outflow of personnel from less paid ministries to more paid ones. Such natural selection. It’s normal! But on the other hand, by strengthening some ministries, from the state’s perspective, we weaken others. For example, the Ministry of Social Policy or the Ministry of Agrarian Policy was always less funded than the same Ministry of Finance or Ministry of Economy. And the best cadres tried to get into those ministries. But social policy in the country is no less important than the even distribution of financial resources. We first encounter social policy in the social security department in each district, where we apply for child birth assistance, where all pensioners go, etc. This forms the impression of the entire state. Fair compensation by European standards means that for the same job you receive the same level of remuneration. Of course, this should not negate the individual in this system… Certain special bonuses for working for the state. For example, the longer you work for the state, the more professional you are, you have experience, you don’t need training, you solve issues efficiently and quickly because you understand the entire system of government, how Cabinet resolutions are agreed upon, how expert opinions are written, etc. We are interested in keeping this person in the public service longer and sharing their experience. Therefore, the seniority allowance is such a bonus to encourage a person to stay, not to look for a job outside the civil service. If you have just joined the civil service, you do not have this allowance. But if you have been here for a long time, then this increases your salary. This is a unique factor that differentiates people who work in the same position. But this is no longer remuneration according to functional duties, but a professional reward, recognition of your professionalism and loyalty to the state, that you have been sailing in the same boat with it for a long time. This is important. And the second component of fairness is the vertical dimension of wages. If your manager earns 5 times more than you, it is an extremely high jump, a gap. It also creates tension in the system. We perfectly understand that the working “bees” are the line civil servants who do the main work. Of course, the managerial staff sees the whole system, directs and redistributes resources, ensures results. And this also needs to be adequately rewarded. But the jump cannot be tenfold. Again, this generates a sense of unfairness.
How Much Do Officials Receive "Net" in Different Regions
VIKTOR
Perhaps this is why the Ministry of Finance was so keen to limit or reduce the disparity in salary payments. What was it based on? Many people do not want to say it truthfully and claim: the official salary of civil servants is 11 thousand, 13 thousand, or 15 thousand UAH. But it is not so. Because earlier and even now, apart from the official salary, there are allowances. And the full salary of civil servants was mainly formed from bonuses. And why were the bonuses primarily formed? Because a large number of vacant positions were deliberately kept in the department. Honestly, when the Ministry of Finance… again, great respect to them for this dashboard, which they update and make. It is visible in which department, how many vacant positions, and what part of the money can be simply redirected to additional bonuses. To whom are additional bonuses primarily given? To loyal people. Or they are given an additional higher percentage of the bonus, and that is unfair. That’s exactly what you are talking about. I will return a little to declarations. Not erroneous ones. I looked, the same position category “chief specialist,” you aptly called them “bees” – these are the people who do this work. I looked at how their salaries changed in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023 across the regions. The highest salary was in several regions. These are the Kyiv region – and this is, in principle, understandable. And the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, oddly enough. And why? Because some people left, and they have additional payments. The average salary is 40 thousand UAH. This is in the declaration.
KYRYLO
Is this before taxes?
VIKTOR
Before taxes. Of course, deductions still need to be made from there.
KYRYLO
Minus 20%.
VIKTOR
Yes, almost minus 20%. This will be the amount they receive “net.” On the other hand, there are regions that receive the least. The Ternopil region – 27.5 thousand UAH and the Volyn region – almost 27 thousand UAH. This is about 21 thousand UAH after taxes. So, here too we see a slight disparity. Perhaps it is formed because in Kyiv there are higher coefficients. There are more people working in civil service in Kyiv, and they work in ministries, where salaries are higher. But still, looking at this regional distribution of salaries, it very much aligns with the economic development of the region. The more developed the region, the higher the salaries of civil servants. If we compare the same, but not civil service, but the salaries of local government bodies, unfortunately, the same level – the chief specialist – has significantly lower salaries. In Kyiv – it is 22.5 thousand UAH before taxes. That’s 18 thousand UAH per month, at best. And the least is 17 thousand UAH – this is the Ternopil region, 16 thousand UAH – this is the Volyn region, 16.5 thousand UAH – this is the Vinnytsia region. This is around 12 thousand UAH after taxes. Yes, of course, there are disparities, but on average, these are the salaries.
KYRYLO
This reflects the state policy in the field of civil service. What workload do we expect to place on different levels of this hierarchy of civil service? If we are talking about ministries, we want people with analytical skills to work there, creating the rules by which the state will live. At the regional level, people need to ensure the implementation of these rules created by the state and convey these rules to the consumers, that is, to the citizens. Their function is not to form various state policy options; they have a more implementation role, which serves the population. That is, providing administrative services in the broadest sense of the word. Therefore, high intellectual stress – to understand a field with many unknowns – is not expected from these employees, although they have an extremely important job on the ground. It is work with people, which is, of course, very difficult, emotionally, first of all. It must also be said frankly that the general level of awareness in society about who is responsible for what in the state is very low. If your pipe leaked in the entrance hall, it’s the President’s fault, and you need to write to the President’s Office. This clogs the entire system of state administration and leads to inefficient use of human resources. But nevertheless, the diversity in wages at the same level of civil service and the same category of positions indicates that different regions have different economic capabilities, as you said. On the other hand, it is these people who should create regional policies that will lead to an increase in the region’s economic potential. And here the “chicken and egg” problem arises: either we have to pay the official on-site a salary at the level of the society of that region, and thus we doom ourselves to reproducing the same quality level policy. If we want some breakthrough leap, we need to attract some Nobel laureate, so to speak. But he cannot be cheap. First, it is self-respect. If a person devalues their experience and is ready to receive a small salary, it speaks to the specifics of this person’s worldview, and this can be dangerous. From the experience of working with foreign projects. I was surprised by the Americans. When we enthusiastically offered to do something pro bono, that is, on a volunteer basis, we received a response that the American government cannot receive free consultation or assistance. The American people must pay for this. This is a fundamental principle of Western society – any work must be paid for. This is about dignity. And we declare that we are fighting for dignity, for freedom, for justice. Therefore, at every level, a fair salary, fair and equal treatment of people, creating opportunities for their comprehensive development is the task of the state. Disbalances in the system, of course, can be, but they must have a logical explanation. For example, in America, the cost of living in all regions is assessed annually, and a system of coefficients to the base salary is calculated, covering the cost of living in the corresponding region. Of course, the cost of living in Kyiv is much higher than in a district center in the same Ternopil region. Therefore, even among equal regions at the same levels, the salary should correspond to the purchasing power of that region, then it will be balanced and fair not in absolute numbers, but in approach. And this will stimulate people to stay in this region, not to move to a neighboring one. As you said, in the Volyn region, it is very low; it is cheaper to move to the Lviv region or just travel to Lviv for work and actually receive a higher salary there.
Gender Disparities: Who Earns More?
VIKTOR
It’s a question similar to the issue of Kyiv and the surrounding areas where many people commute to Kyiv for work. But there’s another dimension. It’s very interesting. I had never thought about it before, as I had never encountered it. However, colleagues recently asked me to look at salaries in terms of gender. And I thought: interesting. And it turns out that gender issues are not that simple.
KYRYLO
So, there is a problem, probably.
VIKTOR
There is no problem at the leadership level. Because at the leadership level, category A in civil service, men’s and women’s salaries are almost identical. The difference of a few percent is not significant. One could say that in leadership positions, salaries for men and women are practically the same. But when we look at other positions, there is indeed a serious difference, especially after 2021. I have data from 2015; the disparity existed before. It slightly decreased in 2020-2021. The reason could include COVID-19. Why? Because a lot of funds went to medical specialists, and many healthcare workers are women. Maybe this somehow balanced the situation. I don’t know. But in 2022 and 2023, the salary difference between men and women was almost 30%. We are talking about the average salary now. In 2022, men’s average salary was 38,000 UAH, and women’s was 25,000 UAH—a 25% difference.
KYRYLO
Is this based on data from declarations?
VIKTOR
These are exclusively data from declarations. How many declarations? Over 4 years, it’s 1.8 million. So, it’s a large enough volume to say that the sample is quite legitimate and the data are fairly accurate. For 2023, the difference decreased. Men’s salaries decreased to 37,000 UAH, and women’s increased to 27,000 UAH. The actual difference is 10,000 UAH between men and women.
KYRYLO
Are you taking the average of all men’s or women’s declarations?
VIKTOR
All declarations, including local self-government bodies. I understand that it’s like an average temperature in a hospital, and it’s correct to break it down and look at civil service, but even there you should look: at leaders, heads of structural units, chief specialists. That’s the right approach. We will do such detailed analytics and, at the next committee, I think, show what has been happening.
KYRYLO
At first glance, it’s strange why such a disparity exists. Because the state doesn’t pay based on gender, but on position. And the salaries are absolutely identical, defined by a Cabinet resolution, so there can’t be any variations. The disparity could arise from the additional payments for years of service. Because we understand that when women take maternity leave, they are not in civil service positions; they are off the staff.
VIKTOR
And this doesn’t count for them? It doesn’t count as service?
KYRYLO
And the question is whether this counts towards civil service tenure or not. This varies in each case, depending on breaks and specific accounting nuances. But I think the disparity lies in the structure of position occupancy by women and men. Because typically, there are more women in lower positions, who receive lower pay, not because they are women, but because they hold lower positions in the civil service. Their proportion in the total number of civil servants is larger. Hence, it pulls down the overall wage by gender. So, it seems women earn less. But as you correctly said, if we compare the same level of positions, the disparity will be smaller. Again, if we take the specifics of men, many are retired military personnel. Entering civil service, they immediately receive a significant allowance because military and law enforcement service immediately counts towards civil service tenure, so they receive a substantial allowance from day one. Previously, they received this before the grading system.
VIKTOR
I agree with you. We took a different slice—exclusively positions in local self-government bodies and looked there. There are also gender disparities in favor of men, but they are not as large. The disparity is less than 20%. In 2023, the average salary for men was 28,000 UAH, and for women, it was 23,000 UAH.
KYRYLO
I would even look not at the average monthly salary, but the cost of working hours. On a regional level, from practice, we encounter that people need to go to their garden in summer, or women need to pick up their child from kindergarten. And if their working hours are reduced, that is, the number of working hours is reduced, they may have a shortened working day, right? And therefore, the monthly salary is naturally proportional to the worked time. It reduces the overall picture. If you calculate the cost of working hours, that would be the ideal story. But we are asking for the impossible.
VIKTOR
And I’m happy enough as it is, despite all the errors in the declarations (which can be cleaned up), that they were opened. Why? Because it’s the transparency that the state declares. It’s transparency declared by state employees, civil servants, and local government bodies. And it’s transparency for the people who pay their salaries. We understand that now civil servants’ salaries are paid by our international partners. And it’s crucial to be transparent to increase trust.
KYRYLO
First and foremost, it’s a unique resource for self-analysis because, according to the general principle of forming the wage fund that the Ministry of Finance has applied for years, they took the previous year’s fund, adjusted for last year’s inflation, added a couple of percent for development.
VIKTOR
Added?
KYRYLO
Yes, they added. And we got the wage fund for this year. Of course, this had nothing to do with reality; it was easier to budget but didn’t meet the needs. What would be the correct way to do it? The state should have a knowledge base of who its civil servants are—specific people with specific years of service, specific social status, education, and a specific position in the system. And precisely according to their characteristics, the system should calculate how much money needs to be planned to retain them on staff and provide financial resources for these people who are already in civil service and extrapolate on the need for development, how many retirements we expect with all the necessary payments, who is leaving civil service on schedule, whose term is ending, that should also be accounted for. And then the system provides an amount—factually, not theoretically, last year plus 10%…
VIKTOR
…spread out…
KYRYLO
…and inside, “manage as you can,” that’s no longer the Ministry of Finance’s problem, right? On the one hand, it’s easier for the state because you can’t account for everything. With modern IT solutions, this can be calculated, with certain allowances, of course.
VIKTOR
Yes, and there was even an attempt.
"An Ineffective Civil Servant is a Disaster for the State"
KYRYLO
Yes, there was an attempt – the HRMIS system, which is an electronic human resources management system for civil service. The development of this electronic system was funded by the World Bank. And now, the leading role is shifting to the Ministry of Digital Transformation. As far as I know, Fedorov wants to create this system based on the Diia platform to make it more user-friendly. We will see. This is an extremely important matter. Then we will work with real data, not just theory. Similarly, the data from the declarations show us what we actually have. And this is not an accusation about why one person earns more and another less. This is data for managers on how to change public policy to ensure the greatest fairness. Of course, understanding our limited resources. But here it is very important to understand why salaries exist at all? To motivate people. Again, this is about the employer – the state, and if we take a step further, today the people who work for the state are ensuring the state policy for tomorrow. For the day when our soldiers from the front lines demobilize after Victory and return to peaceful life. They should return to a place where they are taken care of and given a roadmap of how their lives will unfold and what social guarantees they can rely on.
VIKTOR
Realistically rely on.
KYRYLO
Realistically rely on. What are the minimum necessary documents they need to submit and in the simplest form. And what will happen to them next. And within what time frame will our guys and girls receive gratitude from the state in various forms. And what this gratitude should be. If we do not take care of this today and work on it properly, we will have a very big problem and frustration of millions of people who are now on the front lines, who will return and find that no one was actually waiting for them. Therefore, an ineffective civil servant is a disaster for the state. Because millions suffer from their mistakes. If a person makes a mistake in business, the owner loses some income, and this is a problem for a small number of people. Here it is a problem for the whole country and its future in general. Because the survival of our country depends on a wrong decision at a very high level. By analogy with Bismarck: if you do not want to feed your own army, you will feed someone else’s, and you will definitely not like it. Similarly, with civil servants: if we allow ourselves to have cheap civil servants, we will get poor public policy. If we do not respect civil servants, they feel unnecessary, they are demotivated. Currently, we have admiration for the military because our country relies on them, and complete disdain for civil servants, on whom our country also relies. Including our military personnel who receive their pay. And our Ministry of Foreign Affairs conducts negotiations with foreign partners so that we receive financial and military-technical assistance, so we have the means to fight. Their work is no less important. Therefore, we, Ukrainians, must treat each other with gratitude because everyone in their place is extremely important.
VIKTOR
Everyone in their place is extremely important – on such a positive note, I want to thank you. But I definitely invite you to talk more about the Accounting Chamber, how it operates, the audits you plan to conduct, and their results. And thank our defenders for allowing us to truly breathe in a free country.
KYRYLO
Thank you.